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Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby lissms » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:32 pm

As Avatar says Fleet Saving IS THE ONLY way to have your res. when you get online again, if you don,t know how to fleet save then ask the comunity how. Yoc can ask me and I will tell you one way to di it.
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby Eterna » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:49 pm

There is a balance that is incredibly hard to manage.

Too strong of defenses.. and fleeting is impossible. Too strong of fleet... and turtling is impossible.

The same advantage a large fleet has... defenses have too. Look at some of the defenses that have a high shield ratio.

@Icterus - yes, now you are participating. Discussion, complaints, concerns, rants, etc are all part of the same process.

I've said this many many times - but I'll say it again - this game is far from what I consider "complete"

However, in its current state.. it requires many of the same skills as in other games, specifically fleetsaving.
It's not an optional thing, unless you are in the top 10 it's unlikely you can avoid fleetsaving, even if you only have cargo ships.
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby Warlock » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:08 pm

Can you please direct me to the thread were you are discussing the direction the ship design and direction combat system is going. I would like to understand what decisions have been made and where the combat system is going.

All I see in this thread is a lot of numbers that don't make sense without knowing how the numbers are plugged into the equations.

In my opinion, you should not have to fleet save. There should always be a cost associated with an attack. I should simply have to build enough defenses to deter attacks due to it being unprofitable for the attacker.

If I want to keep 10 billion resources on a planet, I should be able to build enough defenses to inflict at least 5 Billion in damages, and not simply have someone run 1 billion interceptors into my defenses and waltz away unharmed with half my resources. Unless the attacking fleet is completely overwhelming, the attacker should ALWAYS take a loss in a attack. And by overwhelming, I mean having rapid fire and completely wiping out my defenses in the FIRST combat round. I would be happy to post a more detailed description on my ideas, but I don't believe this is the right thread for that discussion.
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby Eterna » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:20 pm

this is the thread. There have been many discussions but nothing of fruition or real substance, so we start anew.

be sure you've read it in full. I am still working on importing the spreadsheet in use to something that can be viewed easier - such as googledocs or the like.

however, i will point out a failing in your logic on the 10 billion resources and 5 billion in damages.
if someone wants the resources, and has a fleet that can take your defenses, you'll need to protect it better than that.

Fleeters calculate their profits by taking their losses AND their deut consumption.
If the fleet attacking your defenses costs 4 billion deut to send it at you, that's still 1 billion profit...
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby Warlock » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:20 pm

Let me try to clarify my example......

I have 10 Billion resources on my planet.

The most an attack seem to be able to steal is 50% of the total, so any single raid would net 5 Billion resources.

So I need to build enough defenses to inflict at least 5 billion resources worth of damage to the attacking fleet. ie it is not worth attacking, if I leave 5 billion resources in a debris field around the planet from my ships. Or if it cost 1 Billion duet to fuel the ships for the attack, the attacker cannot afford to lose more than 4 billion in ships to make a profit.

I am fine with an attacking fleet taking less damaged as its cost vs defenses increases. if the fire power and shield/armor of the attacking fleet more that doubles the fire power and shield/armor of the defenses, than I would expect the attacking fleet to take LESS damaged than if they were equal. But the attacking fleet should always suffer some losses, unless it is a completely one sided battle where the attacker wipes out the defenses in the first combat round. Chances are that the number of ships to completely overwhelm the defenses and take no damage will probably cost too much in fuel to make the attack profitable.
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby Eterna » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:23 pm

How much would you spend on defenses?
Think about it. Defenses should be 30-40% MORE expensive, just because they regenerate.

It's all fine and dandy to put it all in one factor - resources.
To be fair, 6 billion worth of defenses should be able to defend itself from 3-4 billion worth of ships.
If you're defending 10 billion res with 500 million worth of defenses then it simply won't work.

However, how do you decide what costs what? That is the FIRST thing that must be done, everything else falls into place.
Once the game settles on the new server, the first stage of the update completes. The defenses are calculated and testgrounds reopened with their new stats.

After that, you and any others will be allowed free reign.

Only factor missing right now is deciding how to use classes with defenses.
Not surprisingly, so far many ATTACK and SHIELD values change, most of them up.

I've stated many times in the past that I want to see some minimum damage, but until the combat engine is completely rewritten.. I'm afraid that it is not an option to change how shields themselves are handled. There is a combat engine in the works but it is many months away.
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby Warlock » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:03 am

I would disagree with defenses being MORE expensive. Yes the regenerate, but not 100%.

Also -

1. They are stationary. I have 26 colonies, to defend my colonies from ONE fleet I would need to spend 26 times the resources.
2. Unlike ships, ground defenses do not leave debris fields to be recycled. When they do get destroyed the resources used to create them are lost.
3. It should always be easier to defend a position than to attack it.

How much you spend on defenses should be determined by how much damage you want to inflict on an attacking fleet.

Scenario A: 5 Million Defenses vs 5 Million Attack Fleet = Defender Victory - 25% defense loss and 100% attacker loss
Scenario B: 5 Mil Def vs 6 Mil Fleet = Draw - 25% def loss and 90% attacker loss
Scenario C: 5 Mil Def vs 10 Mil Fleet = Attacker Victory - 25% def loss and 50% attacker loss
Scenario D: 5 Mil Def vs 100 Mil Fleet = Attacker Victory - 25% def loss and 0% attacker loss

If I am defending 10 Billion resources with 500 Million defenses, then I should at least inflict 100 Million in damages on the attacking fleet, unless he uses 5 Billion resources worth of ships in the attack.

How do you determine the cost of anything without knowing how the combat engine will work? If you write the combat engine to favor shields over armor, then the ships with more shields would cost more.
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby Eterna » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:55 pm

"1. They are stationary. I have 26 colonies, to defend my colonies from ONE fleet I would need to spend 26 times the resources."

Yes, you do. How does this have any relation to the discussion at hand?

"2. Unlike ships, ground defenses do not leave debris fields to be recycled. When they do get destroyed the resources used to create them are lost."

Right again. They do however have a 70% chance to recover which is calculated individually.

"3. It should always be easier to defend a position than to attack it."

I quote Carl von Clausewitz, who said "The best defense is a good offense". Defenses throughout history have always been MORE costly to support, with even the most expensive defense foiled by a single weakness, and if you ask ANY military man/woman you will learn that defending any position is nigh on impossible if the reward is greater than the risk.
Quoting Sun Tzu: “Convince your enemy that he will gain very little by attacking you; this will diminish his enthusiasm”

Attack results have absolutely no correlation to what the overall value of the defenses or attacking fleet. Lose that predisposition or this conversation will not be able to progress.

Basically what I see you saying.. to have a zero loss attack you must have 20 times the fleet vs defenses. If you read up on the other discussions going on... most folks seem to think that TURTLES already have the advantage, whereas you're claiming the ATTACKER has the advantage.

I've been very clear on the steps that need to be taken and why. We cannot finish the combat engine until the attack values etc MAKE SENSE. They have to be calculable in order to be defined, combat itself does NOT decide what the stats are. Armour is defined the the metal/crystal cost, while shields is a separate calculation.

Don't make me quote myself, please read this ENTIRE thread before replying to this post.
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby Warlock » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:32 pm

So you are basing the game around the ramblings of some German philosopher?

Maybe you should study some actual military battles. Maybe start with the Battle of Thermopylae.

I can now see there is no hope for this conversation. I hope you all the best with your game, but it is not something I wish to play anymore.
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby Eterna » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:43 pm

Who said anything about basing the game about german philosophers??? How can you compare land combat to space warfare?
All the quotes were to explain is that if you have something worth defending... it will be attacked. To be "defensive" in any game like this is not easy at all.

If anyone were to actually read any of my posts in full you would understand that the ships and defenses original stats were completely decided by other people, players here and other developers, or simply based on other games.

Not a single argument you made had any logic that made sense in military battles of our history - look at the cost of a single jet fighter! Look at the cost of the bomblets used to kill some soldiers? How much money has been wasted to build fancy machinery that can be destroyed by a single soldier with a grenade or rocket launcher?

Look at Iraq, how much money was wasted to attack them with fancy weapons, then look at how much damage can be done just with some fertilizer...

I don't mean to keep contradicting you, but you have to apply at least some logic to your argument.

-edit

additionally, the Spartans actions in the Battle of Thermopylae were not a defense, but rather an offense. there were no fortifications, just the Spartan soldiers and a single path for them to battle on... There is absolutely no relevance here..
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