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Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby Dunn » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:22 am

Thank you SG for injecting some common sense and perspective into this thread. I think we all enjoy this game and I for one am very much looking forward to the time when this game is completed and out of beta. Anything that slows that process down or interferes with eOs' time and effort (given freely) in achieving that goal is frankly selfish and childish. So , yes Demonic, in that context, i believe comparing bug-exploitation/multi-accounts/cheating to taking advantage of changes NOT INTENDED OR DESIGNED to increase ones standing in the game (but rather to move the game forward to completion) is a valid analogy. One breaks established rules and another does not, but simply NOT breaking rules doesn't make any action correct/right/ethical/moral. BOTH ACTIONS HAVE HAD THE SAME CONSEQUENCE, slowing down game development. If asking all players to scrap fleets or give back resources makes eOs' life easier, and if he doesn't have to spend time/energy handling all the complaints and whining over this ONE issue , then for heaven's sake let's all do what he asks and move on.

Do you want fries with that?
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby DemonicTutor » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:16 am

What you fail to see is that this has absolutely nothing to do with me willingly scrapping the fleet. Had eOs said this originally then I would have absolutely no problem. My problem is that when this thread started, the new and old costs were brought forward. Along with the game plan, the 100% scrap yard return, etc etc. So EVERYBODY could easily do the math and see that some ships would increase and some would not. The no attack zone along with 100% return meant that ODS were a no brainer. Build as many as you want because you can scrap them at 100% (even at the old value) and have gained resources from that action since nobody could attack. Fundamentally: what this is all about is that too few players understood the implications of the new cost structures. I produced a spread sheet within minutes and calculated the ROI on each ship. That would allow me to use ODS to gain resources, scrap the ODS at 100% and then buy the ships with the highest ROI before the price update. After the price update I would dump the ships at 100% and have gained a profit. So this is not something unique about me. This is not me exploiting anything. I actually thought that almost all other managers would do the same, which is why it is frustrating as hell that other managers who clearly did NOT understand what to do strategy wise, bitch about some players benefiting too much from this action. Would my profit have been good? YES YES YES...but so would everybody else's. So the whiners in here are the ones who found out too late - or didn't find out at all. And that results is those people calling cheat and saying that I am ruining the game.

Out of respect to eOs I will scrap my fleet if he asks me to. But don't think for a minute that I don't want the best for the game. However, what I don't want is for whiners to control the fate of this game.

ps. I also saw the profit gained from this action as a nice courtesy for not having resource optimization for several weeks which has cost me more resources than this profit would have given me
pps. I don't eat fries since I'm European and actually pays attention to what I put into my body
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby Dunn » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:40 pm

Ummm..didn't this all start with a thread with you being unhappy about eOs' possible handling of this Demonic? Just a sec... lemme grab some quotes... ahem..

1. I have to call BS when it comes to your handling of the new vessel prices.
2. And what you are doing is dictating us to sell our ships at low only to have to buy them back at a higher price
3. you are acting like a leader of former Soviet Union or present China
4. But asking us to either scrap our entire fleets on our own – and hereby maybe gaining up to 10.000 DM – or having you doing it for us can only be seen as an act of desperation.
5. With none of us having spent sufficient time on upgrading those buildings to enable us to buy back our original fleet, it makes this whole ordeal look even more fucked up. (bad financial planning there maybe?)
6. this is nowhere near acceptable
7. Don’t instate communism in here

You know, after some reflection, i completely agree with you Demonic.
8. what I don't want is for whiners to control the fate of this game.
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby Eterna » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:43 pm

This move is something that bothers me greatly, I originally planned on just leaving people with their fleets. intact, but offer an optional scrapping.

It wasn't Demonic or any other specific people, it was an observation by another admin that first attracted attention.
The number of ODS went up 278%, the number of dreadnoughts went up 220%, and the number of probes went up over 960%, and more...

It's one thing to do the ODS, I expected that, but what was starting to happen was going to imbalance the game even more than the change in prices would.

Then the complaints came in about specific people doing it, amongst other things. Thats when I had to change the overall plan at the last minute, and why I delayed the price changes for another day - they ARE coming in a matter of an hour.

You see, the price changes have been planned since October, when the first changes to the Titans was done. The Titans have since been assimilated, though we still have the Titan tech (going to be giving it a reason shortly).
I decided it was far to much of an upheaval when that happened, and EVEN THOUGH I KNEW THERE WAS AN IMBALANCE there was no feasible way to calculate the best spread of stats while at the same time maintaining a balance of sorts.
There were certain things that were done in spite (hint hint, another game has Death Stars unstoppable) and others that were done ENTIRELY to player suggestions.

Sadly, there was no easy way to fix it. Certain players became involved at various points, many ideas put forward, and then...through the use of literally a dozen ideas and half calculations, we worked out a system that covered Attack in a way that "looked" right. Then.. shields..that was a difficult one. Then we pulled out the idea of Classes from 0 to 6, with 0 being non-combat ships. One extra variable. Four variables allows for a bit better math, less fubar. Out comes the shield calculation. We're now a month into it.. and we run into the wall...

We've calculated the W&S stats off the cost.. but where does the cost come from? Now the calculators start to smoke... Tech? Class?
Aha Class & a new idea.. Tiers also 1 to 6, with 1 being the weakest version of each ship. We celebrate and buy each other beers, then it sinks in.

We've calculated the W&S off the cost, the cost off the class, tiers, and the base cost we've calculated using the tech to unlock tier 1. Where does the Rapid Fire come in?

So we pull out the classes, the tiers. Putting them next to each other looks kinda right... but it's missing something. A cycle. So we then take the Attack and the tiers to calculate the value, and then the tiers and classes to decide the targets.

Sound complicated?

It gets tested, retested, and thrice-tested. The numbers make sense.
As shown in other "combat" tests, testgrounds isn't the ideal platform for it.

So, we replace a flawed system of stats with a largely untested system. I'm positive there will be issues not foreseen. In fact if nobody complains in the first week I will be absolutely astonished.

To make the transition easier.. and stop the calling of names and heating of tempers... I think it is best that all players recycle their fleet, earn a DM reward, then start rebuilding asap.
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby Taaxi » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:17 pm

I'm glad to see the WSA having a basis for the numbers.. As far as RF goes, I have not really had a chance to look at it yet.. I'm waiting for the numbers to be "final" before I look at em and explain where they need to be fixed..

As far as the To Scrap or Not to Scrap debate goes: I asked VERY early on if scrapping was mandatory or not.. I have always thought that it SHOULD BE, but the answer was that it was optional.. I used EoS' answer to determine my course of action.. Everyone who plays and reads the forums knew what changes were going in and should have used their brains, assuming possession of such, to make the same conclusions that I did. I decided to build a shit ton of ODS during the days that attacks were disabled, so I could increase resource production risk free, and then scrapped them to build ships that were dramatically going up in price, like Evo Bombers.. I used info that was available to the entire player base and therefor don't see how I had ANY ADVANTAGE.. Still, I spoke with EoS, who under pressure from complainers, thought it was best if I recycled my fleet.. I recycled, and contacted my alliance mates to do the same.. I really appreciate what EoS is doing with the limited amount of free time he has. Although I disagree with some of his decisions, I truly want to do my part to make this game great..
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby Eterna » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:19 pm

You've made your stance clear Taaxi, and I appreciate the support you give.

It's not an easy task, I still will openly admit I would rather be developer alone, rather than developer/administrator/customer service etc
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby DemonicTutor » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:52 pm

DESPITE the scoreboard showing 500something evo bombers next to my name I DID SCRAP THEM BEFORE THE UPDATED PRICES. So now I have to find resources somewhere else to be able to rebuild my old fleet. hm...I wonder where I should start to look.........
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby AvatarAcid » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:04 pm

If there is a next time and this pops up eOs you should take a page from my sysadmin book, there should be only one choice you give us; scrap the fleet now or lose it during update. It is fine, I have discovered that Users are just like puppies that you are training, they need clearly defined rules and processes, otherwise they start crapping on your furnishings.

I for one understand this is a beta game and support any action you can take that makes thinks quicker and easier for you during your busy time.
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby Bruin22 » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:33 pm

AvatarAcid wrote:If there is a next time and this pops up eOs you should take a page from my sysadmin book, there should be only one choice you give us; scrap the fleet now or lose it during update. It is fine, I have discovered that Users are just like puppies that you are training, they need clearly defined rules and processes, otherwise they start crapping on your furnishings.

I for one understand this is a beta game and support any action you can take that makes thinks quicker and easier for you during your busy time.


+1 hahaha true story. Ultimately the choice is yours. I say this for myself, but I would imagine others agree with me here, that I would continue to play this game even though there might be no player choices here and there and I did not like some of your decisions. EV is too addictive to quit after putting in all the time behind it over some stupid reason. So you don't have to worry about loss of players. There's always another fish willing to take the bait.
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Re: Combat System Discussion - ALL SHOULD READ!

Postby Eterna » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:42 pm

Yeah I hear you.

Thank you Demonic, I hope we can put this behind us.

Realized that in my rambling post.. I completely forgot the *hopefully* last wall we ran into.. The initial RF, the way it scales, and how to add something else... Size.

Size gives the last variable in our last unfinished calculation, in combination with armour and deut cost, the deuterium consumption. The Size and Class determines the engine type. Finally, we pull out the deut costs, class, duet consumption, and tier to decide fuel consumption.

This all comes next, but NO recyclin this time!
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