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VOTE - For Population/DarkMatter Trade Ratio

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VOTE - For Population/DarkMatter Trade Ratio

Postby suresh » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:37 pm

The Trade Ratio between the population and darkmatter is on voting now .

Vote for a ratio and feel free to discuss

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Re: VOTE - For Population/DarkMatter Trade Ratio

Postby Daddyman » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:52 pm

Unless I have made a mistake these ratios will kill the need to do DM expeditions and investigations. At 2000 to 1 (and assuming a 16,8,4,1 ratio) it only takes 320,000,000 metal to buy a Resource Optimization at 10,000dm. I feel this is way too easy to get. I think the Pop/DM ratio should be closer to 200,000 population for 1 dark matter, or even higher. This would preserve the importance of the Dark Matter and create more need for the DM expeditions and investigations.
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Re: VOTE - For Population/DarkMatter Trade Ratio

Postby maynard » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:55 pm

Daddyman wrote:Unless I have made a mistake these ratios will kill the need to do DM expeditions and investigations. At 2000 to 1 (and assuming a 16,8,4,1 ratio) it only takes 320,000,000 metal to buy a Resource Optimization at 10,000dm. I feel this is way too easy to get. I think the Pop/DM ratio should be closer to 200,000 population for 1 dark matter, or even higher. This would preserve the importance of the Dark Matter and create more need for the DM expeditions and investigations.

well kill for DM nah less and more that will give this game a kick more fighting fast build sweet :) kill kill
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Re: VOTE - For Population/DarkMatter Trade Ratio

Postby Eterna » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:47 pm

Before, the trade ratio was 33.000 Deuterium to 1 Dark Matter

This was calculated based on the cost of the IDM - and the average return being 500 DM per investigation.
I've called for a vote because not many have understood the reasoning behind it, and I want the players to have a say.

That said - if we were to say go with the 8/4/2/1 ratio i.e. 8 metal for 1 population... then keep the original 33000 deut:1 DM we would have a cost of 16500 Population:1 DM.

Now, here's the issue I'm running into...if we have 16500 pop:1 DM then with the daily bonus of 100 DM as well as the voting bonus of what 150 DM (can't remember atm) we could reasonably start seeing players turning their DM into massive amounts of resources.

So.. 250 DM a day = 4,125,000 population or 8,250,000 deuterium or 16,500,000 crystal or 33,000,000 metal.

with 2000:1 we can expect to see:

250 DM = 500,000 population or 1 mil deut, 2 mil crystal, or 4 mil metal.

with 500:1 we can expect only 250 DM = 125,000 pop

Anyone else see the dilemma?
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Re: VOTE - For Population/DarkMatter Trade Ratio

Postby Daddyman » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:39 pm

I'm sorry but I do not see the dilemma. As a seasoned player the 250dm per day is nothing to me. I see a gain of 3,000 to 4,000 dm each and every day from my voting, expeditions, and investigations. Even converting all of this dm to res would be of very little use to me. My dm is used for the Resource Optimization ONLY. For the new players the Resource Optimization is not the best way to use their dm. For them converting it to res gives them a better boost. This boost is not a problem in any way. This boost helps to keep the new players from feeling that it will take forever to get to the top. Devaluing the dm will only serve to keep the new(and lower level) players down. This may even cause some players to leave the game before they can get to the upper levels. This is the reason I have suggested increasing the value of dm even higher than the vote is allowing. Let the "little" guys build up faster. This will make it more fun for them and hopefully increase the member base. Increasing the value of the dm will not be of any value to the higher level players since we use it only to buy the Resource Optimization(I am assuming that is all the top players use it for.)
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Re: VOTE - For Population/DarkMatter Trade Ratio

Postby Eterna » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:22 am

You've hit the nail on it's head, but you're missing one key point. The exchange rate has to work for everyone - no specific group is targeted.

If it is too easy to get a mass amount of resources we will see the SAME thing that occurred when transports were enabled - players quitting after getting gifted with millions.. and being raided for it all.

Resource Optimization without the advanced mines ends up being only a slight increase - significantly lower than what the DM can be traded into resources for.

The thing that I want to avoid is someone getting 4000 DM a day and turning it all into say.. deuterium - @ 33K Deut:1 DM that results in 132,000,000 deut a day. At a 2000:1 ratio that results in 8,000,000. This is still a significant amount for anyone.

I'm proposing several things with this vote.
1. We lower the cost of the IDM by a factor of 10.
2. We increase the rate of DM gain by 2 via the IDM investigation.
3. We lower the exchange rate so that at lower levels it's still a significant boost, but at higher levels it's not obscene.
4. We increase the cost of the Resource Bonus.

One thing to remember - the market has a +25% inflation maximum. That 8 mil deut could be 10 mil...
I will say this firm though - there will not be a 33000:1 ratio again - it is far too easily abused.

That all said... we have the means to change the exchange rates for each.

i.e. someone wanting to buy resources can get a better exchange rate than someone wanting to buy DM.

And before you ask - yes, I am focusing more on the DM -> Resource conundrum than on the Resource -> DM.
However, I have noticed that there are much much fewer trades for Resource -> DM... it may take a trial run to spot further issues.
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Re: VOTE - For Population/DarkMatter Trade Ratio

Postby Taaxi » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:09 pm

Here is the issue as I see it- please correct me if I am missing something- we're trying to figure out where population fits into the player to player trade ratio. I think this is a moot point, since player to player trade should not have artificial caps, preventing the free market from doing its job.

Players need to decide what they are willing to pay for DM or let it go for. One thing that is not being taken into account is that DM comes into the game in limited amounts, whereas the other resources keep flowing in, more and more as the mine levels increase for players. This is just simple inflation. DM is like gold and the other resources are like Dollars- Gold comes into the economy slowly, while Dollars are easily printed.

As players grow in power, they produce more and more resources, but essentially the same DM. Eventually, all the officers are purchased and all that is left are the temp bonuses- most higher end people use the resource optimization. Those higher end folks can usually create a DM surplus, as all they are spending is 10k DM every 4 days. These folks don't have a need to purchase DM from other players.

What I think would make things interesting is if we added additional Optimizations that stack with the original and get more expensive.

Example:

10k = 50% bonus
30k = 100%
90k = 200%
270k = 400%

This means that someone could get a 750% bonus if they were to spend 400k every 4 days. There is no realistic way for a player to maintain this level on his own. This would make DM very valuable to the higher end and allow the lower end folks a chance to get the best market value to them, allowing them to grow their empires.
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Re: VOTE - For Population/DarkMatter Trade Ratio

Postby Eterna » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:53 pm

unfortunately the free market idea did not work and was abused HORRIBLY.

when I saw trades being done with absolutely no reason other than circumventing the pulling rule, it was the final straw. If it was used in the way many of us theorized, it would have been fine to leave it as is.

What I've done now is set a MAXIMUM of 25% inflation. Meaning, the minimum trade value will be what the Merchant would offer - but you can increase your demanded trade by 25%.

If the market is used a lot we will start events such as Higher Exchange Rate Week and more.

This vote is on the final value of Population, as we are deciding the metal/crystal/deut/pop ratio in the other vote. You're quite correct to compare DM to gold as it is a limited commodity, that's why it's the final valuation.

I have successfully made the temp bonuses stack, but to increase it's effect will take much more time to code - right now it's a static variable and it would have to be migrated to the database to be affected by the # of purchases.
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Re: VOTE - For Population/DarkMatter Trade Ratio

Postby Imperiex » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:05 am

Eterna wrote:You've hit the nail on it's head, but you're missing one key point. The exchange rate has to work for everyone - no specific group is targeted.

If it is too easy to get a mass amount of resources we will see the SAME thing that occurred when transports were enabled - players quitting after getting gifted with millions.. and being raided for it all.

Resource Optimization without the advanced mines ends up being only a slight increase - significantly lower than what the DM can be traded into resources for.

The thing that I want to avoid is someone getting 4000 DM a day and turning it all into say.. deuterium - @ 33K Deut:1 DM that results in 132,000,000 deut a day. At a 2000:1 ratio that results in 8,000,000. This is still a significant amount for anyone.

I'm proposing several things with this vote.
1. We lower the cost of the IDM by a factor of 10.
2. We increase the rate of DM gain by 2 via the IDM investigation.
3. We lower the exchange rate so that at lower levels it's still a significant boost, but at higher levels it's not obscene.
4. We increase the cost of the Resource Bonus.

One thing to remember - the market has a +25% inflation maximum. That 8 mil deut could be 10 mil...
I will say this firm though - there will not be a 33000:1 ratio again - it is far too easily abused.

That all said... we have the means to change the exchange rates for each.

i.e. someone wanting to buy resources can get a better exchange rate than someone wanting to buy DM.

And before you ask - yes, I am focusing more on the DM -> Resource conundrum than on the Resource -> DM.
However, I have noticed that there are much much fewer trades for Resource -> DM... it may take a trial run to spot further issues.


While I understand where you're coming from I think too much focus on how the game can be abused is a mistake. There will always be some asshole who turns all of his brainpower (which may be considerable) to scamming the system. Tragic but true. I think that the proof, as they say, is in the pudding, by which I mean, NOBODY is using the market. In fact currently, the resources required to build a single IDM garner a minimum of 8000 DM on the market. That's insane! I send 4 IDMs at a time (because someone told me that gives you a 45% chance of get DM, which turns out to be complete bs) and if I get even 1000 DM I feel like I've hit the lottery. Not all of us can send IDM's and expeditions all day every day. DM is much harder for the average player to come by, and with the massively increased cost of officers it is even more valuable.
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Re: VOTE - For Population/DarkMatter Trade Ratio

Postby Bruin22 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:16 am

Imperiex wrote:
Eterna wrote:You've hit the nail on it's head, but you're missing one key point. The exchange rate has to work for everyone - no specific group is targeted.

If it is too easy to get a mass amount of resources we will see the SAME thing that occurred when transports were enabled - players quitting after getting gifted with millions.. and being raided for it all.

Resource Optimization without the advanced mines ends up being only a slight increase - significantly lower than what the DM can be traded into resources for.

The thing that I want to avoid is someone getting 4000 DM a day and turning it all into say.. deuterium - @ 33K Deut:1 DM that results in 132,000,000 deut a day. At a 2000:1 ratio that results in 8,000,000. This is still a significant amount for anyone.

I'm proposing several things with this vote.
1. We lower the cost of the IDM by a factor of 10.
2. We increase the rate of DM gain by 2 via the IDM investigation.
3. We lower the exchange rate so that at lower levels it's still a significant boost, but at higher levels it's not obscene.
4. We increase the cost of the Resource Bonus.

One thing to remember - the market has a +25% inflation maximum. That 8 mil deut could be 10 mil...
I will say this firm though - there will not be a 33000:1 ratio again - it is far too easily abused.

That all said... we have the means to change the exchange rates for each.

i.e. someone wanting to buy resources can get a better exchange rate than someone wanting to buy DM.

And before you ask - yes, I am focusing more on the DM -> Resource conundrum than on the Resource -> DM.
However, I have noticed that there are much much fewer trades for Resource -> DM... it may take a trial run to spot further issues.


While I understand where you're coming from I think too much focus on how the game can be abused is a mistake. There will always be some asshole who turns all of his brainpower (which may be considerable) to scamming the system. Tragic but true. I think that the proof, as they say, is in the pudding, by which I mean, NOBODY is using the market. In fact currently, the resources required to build a single IDM garner a minimum of 8000 DM on the market. That's insane! I send 4 IDMs at a time (because someone told me that gives you a 45% chance of get DM, which turns out to be complete bs) and if I get even 1000 DM I feel like I've hit the lottery. Not all of us can send IDM's and expeditions all day every day. DM is much harder for the average player to come by, and with the massively increased cost of officers it is even more valuable.


I think you have a very good point here about too much focus. But also i think you need to remember that this game is still in Beta. There is still so much to come, so much to take shape and so much that hasnt even been thought of yet. so what may seem like too much focus on abuse prevention now, when the game is finally ready to be released, not just out of Beta, but Alpha, we are going to look back and say, "yes, this game came out exactly as we(including the players, not just Dev Team) wanted it and it should have came out." In all likelihood there will be more additions to the game along with countless tweaks and frustrations, to ultimately make this game better. And the Player's opinion is so much more important than people know. And i wish more players would come here to voice your opinion and share their knowledge and reasoning and calculations like you have because that is exactly what this forums is meant to do. an area where players can congregate outside of the game to SHARE their experiences and debate changes.


AS to your IDM expeditions, 4IDMS actually are supposed to give you a 50% chance of finding DM but does nothing to actually increase the amount found. that is an important statement regarding the game mechanics in and of itself as it is often misconstrued. I also know many people complain that the actual results arent close to what the projected results suggest they should be. There is a post somewhere, and after this post i will look for it and post in an edit when i find it.DM isnt supposed to be garnered in crazy amounts its supposed to be extremely difficult to obtain as the benefits and uses are just as extremely useful which is why eOs is against the sale of it. Perhaps further discussion on balancing is needed on how to obtain amounts and such. you are free to proceed in making a topic in EV discussion to take thus the matter into further detail and hear everyone elses opinion. However, the part of not everyone can send IDMs all day and everyday is not really a valid argument as someone who invests more time and energy into this game should definitely be rewarded with more than someone who does not play as often. so keep that in mind as well.
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