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NEW Discussion of Combat Engine

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Re: NEW Discussion of Combat Engine

Postby turtwig9 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:57 am

Hows this coming along? I have an idea but it's probably totally different from whats being working on.

Rather than combat being done with the attackers whole fleet attacking and then the defenders, all the ships/defenses on both sides could shoot in a randomized order. This makes it more like a battle rather than turn-based combat, and will make the outcome not predictable to the last ship. (simulator could run the battle a number of times and give an average of the outcome)

When a ship attacks, it could choose a random target based on the quantity of each unit on the opposing side (so if there was 99 rocket launchers and 1 laser turret, there is a 99% chance it will go for the rocket launcher, so fodder is still viable.) and do damage to the top unit on the stack of that unit type. This stops the shield-merging effect that causes an attacker to be able to absorb millions of damage without losing a single unit. For example when ships that attack defenders rocket launchers do enough damage to destroy 1 rocket launcher, 1 rocket launcher is destroyed and the rest are fine. This will allow for a vastly smaller side to still destroy some ships on a much larger one, as opposed to doing nothing what so ever. But if lets say a death star attacked rocket launchers it would completely destroy the topmost one, but the rest of the damage it could have done wouldn't go through into further rocket launchers. (Again, this makes both offensive and defensive fodder viable.) Rapid fire would still work how it does.

Shields could be repaired at the end of each round, which gives larger titans a shield tanking effect which would be a benefit for using them rather than massive stacks of fighters. Armour however would carry over damage from the previous round setting it apart from shields as an aspect of units.

However, this method of combat would give defenders an advantage as attackers no longer get to do damage first, and 70% of defenses would come back online after the battle while the attacker would lose everything that was destroyed. To counter this, on the first round of combat the attacker could gain a *first strike* bonus which would a percentage increase to the damage they would do in the first round. This means that when there is a battle between two evenly matched sides occurs, the attacker would have the advantage because they would destroy more ships in the first round, and then gain a numerical advantage in further rounds. It also gives offensive fodder an advantage over defensive fodder in the battle, which balances out the defensive fodders post-battle advantage of coming back online. The exact percentage bonus it provides could be tested and changed in the frontier until a balanced value is found.

I agree that battles could take time to occur, but when large battles are occurring over someones base the things going on there (building construction, research, fleet/defense production etc.) should pause (since they're too busy dealing with the death stars over their heads to continue setting up a solar panel. haha). Aid from both sides could also join the fight next round by sending units to the battle site.
I also agree that attackers should be able to retreat next round by choosing to do so while the timer for the current round is counting down... though for the combat method i suggested it would have to only be available after 2-3 rounds to stop the *strike bonus* from being abused. Perhaps any fleet could retreat (only to one of its owners bases though) after a number of rounds have passed to allow some of a fleet to flee the battle and survive if enough deuterium is present in the base for a defenders ships to use. (though no resources could be loaded onto the fleeing ships.)

Sorry if i've just came out with a load of rubbish, i joined the game sometime last year and only stuck around for a few days... and then i got some free time so i came back 2 days ago! :lol:
But i have played others like this game, and i like the extra features which aren't in others using the same engine. I also like how its aiming to be fairer to those who can't pay money into it, since i tend to only put money into games if i've stuck around for a while and i've been happy with it.
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Re: NEW Discussion of Combat Engine

Postby Eterna » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:50 pm

Hello turtwig

Thank you for showing interest.

The concept of having combat as a lengthy event, rather than an instant calculation, isn't a new one - and your view of it would be quite challenging.
We are working on having this a possibility, even to the extent of having an animated rendition of the battle.

It wouldn't be very realistic to have each fleet wait their turns, the chaos of real combat is what we SHOULD have.

Right now, the next revision of the combat engine is almost ready - it uses probabilistic theory so battles aren't as one-sided and are closer to the ideal. This is of course only the first step - next we have to find a way to extend the combat so we can add more to it. For us to have some of the planned features, this is a must.

Nobody has come up with the concept of having planets halt when attacked, though this could be taken advantage of... and with the amount of population compared to fleet consumption, I don't think it's that plausible.

Now, some ideas I've had were to stagger the rounds and have them as separate waves... allowing even for the possible of ACS fleets joining the offensive. Just theory at this time though.

Keep up the discussion!
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Re: NEW Discussion of Combat Engine

Postby turtwig9 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:45 pm

No probs, i noticed how one side in a lot of the huge battles in the hall of fame lose almost nothing and then saw the combat engine was going to be changed... a slight hope for my impending doom. Haha :P

Do you mean challenging code wise? I don't know what is and isn't difficult to do in that regard, tbh.

Yeah, i agree. As the size of the fleets get larger the imbalance it creates becomes increasingly apparent, it seems.

Great, this only be implemented in the frontier for a while then i guess? (i've been thinking of joining it, but i only really have time to turtle on just one account.)
As for extending it (im assuming you mean time wise) staggering the rounds into waves seems like the easiest and probably best idea, the only other way i can think of would be basing the length of the battle on the number of ships... but since the size of fleets grows exponentially as players develop, the amount of time each ship adds would have to decrease with the increasing size of the fleet. A battle between only a few ships would take seconds, but it would have to be calculated based on a formula so that one between millions of ships took a reasonable length of time (100million = a few hours?). But then im not sure how you'd allow ACS fleets to join between rounds... maybe divide the time into equal chunks based on the number of rounds? Its beginning to sound more and more complicated to try do it that way, i think waves are probably best. Making the amount of time in some way relative to the size of the fleets would be cool, but it sounds like way too much work for what its worth.

Hmm, building on the idea of needing population to man defenses, maybe while a battle is happening those people could be temporarily deducted from the amount on your resources display, and if thats at zero then the planet halts? That would make the advantage other players could take over you if they could halt your planet an incentive to not build more defenses than you can support, and to keep a large population. Population could also man ships, and would again be deducted from the planet they were sent from and added to a different bases amount if the ships were sent from one base to another. Perhaps having them man ships and defenses would mean they could be killed (and not return to your amount) when the unit is destroyed? The ones in the 70% of defenses that come back online would survive as well... they would become more of a driving workforce than a resource, you'd need a large population to send a large fleet from a single base, and you'd want to keep enough there to man defenses, the population would move with the ships being gathered up for an attack. This opens up the biological missile idea somewhere on the forum (might even be this topic) as an alternate way of crippling enemies, and sets population apart from metal, crystal and deuterium. Oh, and also you'd be able to remove the population requirement for building units because they'd be being used in a way that doesn't imply they're being integrated into the hull. :D
Its all just a theory though, and it does open up a 'biological missile spam' possibility... but that could be balanced by making them take more space in the missile silo, making them more easily dealt with if you have a supply of ABMs.
Population needs a use, as a new person to the game im getting along fine with only 1 level of arcology compared to 20 levels of the metal mine.
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Re: NEW Discussion of Combat Engine

Postby carninesix » Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:42 pm

Hello,

I consider this a bit of a bug.

http://tor.eternaverse.org/CombatReport.php?raport=21678905179a2867eff615a589f1e342&ajax=1

I have 950,000 LF vs 1,500,000 I lose all attacker loses 6 in total.

Steve
Tolian Soran: "What's normal?" Well, that's a good question. Normal is what everyone else is and you are not.
I have ideas, some good some bad.
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Re: NEW Discussion of Combat Engine

Postby Eterna » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:41 pm

This is exactly why we are having the discussion.
It is not a bug, it is an example of the math working poorly - your 950K were not individuals but just ONE ship.

The new combat engine takes each individual into account - please try it in testgrounds.
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